US General Wesley Clark Admits Targeting Civilians In Yugoslavia

[Andrej Tisma]

Monday, January 26th, 2004
EXCLUSIVE:  AT DEMOCRACY NOW!
In this transcript US General Wesley Clark  Admits Targeting Civilians In
Yugoslavia
____________________________________


Since the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia, General Wesley Clark has not answered
any in-depth questions about his targeting of civilian infrastructure in
Yugoslavia, his bombing of Radio Television Serbia, the use of cluster bombs
and depleted uranium, the speeding-up of the cockpit video of a bombing of a
passenger train to make it appear as though it was an accident and other
decisions he made and orders he gave as NATO's Supreme Allied Commander.

This weekend, we had a chance to ask Clark some questions he has never faced
before. After a rally where Clark was filming a TV commercial for his
campaign, Jeremy and I made our way to the stage. As we attempted to
question General Clark, we were told by his press people that he would not
be taking questions from reporters. As he was heading backstage, Jeremy
approached Clark.


Gen. Wesley Clark, being questioned by Democracy Now! correspondent Jeremy
Scahill.
TRANSCRIPT:
JEREMY SCAHILL: In Yugoslavia, you used cluster bombs and depleted
uranium...

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure did.

JEREMY SCAHILL: I want to know if you are president, will you vow not to use
them.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I will use whatever it takes that's legal to protect
the men and women against force.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Even against civilians in the Nis marketplace? Why bomb
Radio Television Serbia? Why did you bomb Radio Television Serbia? You
killed 16 media workers, sir.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They were-[in audible - Interview interrupted by
another questioner.]

That was Clark making an exit off the stage. We followed him as he left the
theater and walked down the streets of Portsmouth, New Hampshire, shaking
hands, signing autographs, talking to potential voters. As he was entering a
business establishment, Jeremy Scahill again approached the General.


Gen. Wesley Clark, being questioned by Democracy Now! correspondent Jeremy
Scahill.
TRANSCRIPT:
JEREMY SCAHILL: General Clark, on that issue of the bombing of Radio
Television Serbia, Amnesty International called it a war crime.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Excuse me -- I'm not --

JEREMY SCAHILL: Amnesty called it a war crime and it's condemned by all
journalist organizations in the world. It killed makeup artists.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I want to answer this fellow. Because the truth was
that that -- first of all, we gave warnings to Milosevic that that was going
to be struck. I personally called the CNN reporter and had it set up so that
it would be leaked, and Milosevic knew. He had the warning because after he
got the warning, he actually ordered the western journalists to report there
as a way of showing us his power, and we had done it deliberately to sort of
get him accustomed to the fact that he better start evacuating it. There
were actually six people who were killed, as I recall.

JEREMY SCAHILL: There were 16.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I recall six.

JEREMY SCAHILL: I was there at the time and I knew the families. They do
hold Milosevic accountable and they also hold you accountable, sir.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They were ordered to stay there.

JEREMY SCAHILL: And they were makeup artists, and they were engineers, and
they were technicians

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I remember reading the story, but I want to tell you
about it.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Amnesty International said you committed a war crime by
bombing that.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was all looked at by the International Criminal
Tribunal crime by Yugoslavia. All of my actions were examined and they were
all upheld by the highest law in the United States.

JEREMY SCAHILL: And you think a media outlet is a legitimate target?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, but when it is used as command and control, it is.
But then

JEREMY SCAHILL: Even if it kills…

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Now wait a minute, you have to let me finish and then
I will let you finish.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Go ahead.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: What I said is, we would give them the warnings. It
was part of the command and control systems. It was approved as a legitimate
target under the laws of land warfare and went through the U.S. Government.
That was the basis on which we struck. We actually called the bombers back
one time, because there was still -- it was still unclear to us that we
weren't absolutely certain. What we know is that Milosevic ordered them to
stay there, and it was wrong, but I was doing my duty, and I have been
looked at by the law, so -- I mean, I respect Amnesty International. I think
they're a good organization, but --

JEREMY SCAHILL: But do you feel any remorse for the killing of civilians
that you essentially were overseeing?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, I do.

JEREMY SCAHILL: And what about the bombing of the Nis marketplace with
cluster bombs, shredding human beings.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was terrible, but you know in that instance, if we
had got the same incident, there was a cluster bomb that opened prematurely.
It was an accident. And every one of these incidents was fully investigated.
All of the material from the Yugoslavian government was given to the
International Criminal Tribunal, plus as the NATO commander, I made a full
report to the International Criminal Tribunal. It was all investigated. The
pilots who did it, nobody could have felt worse than the pilots who did it.
And I got a letter from a man in Serbia who said you killed my granddaughter
on a schoolyard at Nis. I know how he must have felt. And I felt so helpless
about it. Every night before I let those bombs go, I prayed we wouldn't kill
innocent people. But unfortunately, when you are at war, terrible things
happen, even when you don't want them to. You can't imagine what those
pilots felt like in those convoys when they struck the convoys. You remember
the convoys?

JEREMY SCAHILL: In Gurdulica were the 72 Albanians were killed.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: In that place, too. And they had flown over it a
couple of times. You know, we just -- we were trying to establish some kind
of communications on the ground with the Albanians. The Serbs were on the
nets, and they were jamming all of the communications, and they were doing
imitative communications deception. And nobody could get the truth about it.
We saw the Serb vehicles around the place. And I didn't make the decision,
but they were following orders on my command. And it was looked at, and so
forth. The decision was made as a legitimate target. It turned out that they
had been ordered to stay in there by the Serbs. The Serbs were surrounding
the place to keep them penned in. It was horrible. You never forget stuff
like that. That's why when this government has used force as it has, it
makes me so angry. Because these people in the White House don't
understand -- you don't use force except as a last, last, last resort.

JEREMY SCAHILL: On April 12th you targeted a passenger train, and then you
showed a video that was sped up at three time the speed. Why?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think -- first of all, the passenger train was not
targeted. The pilot's instructions were to go after a bridge, and not the
train. He felt, as he launched that missile, that all of a sudden at the
very last minute, the train suddenly came into his field of view. I showed
the tape. I did not know that the tape was accelerated. I don't think it was
three times. I think it was one-and-a-half times. Whatever it was, it was
going faster than the actual speed. It made it look like it was --

JEREMY SCAHILL: But the Supreme Allied Commander, you are ultimately
responsible for all of the information that came out.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's true. I was.

JEREMY SCAHILL: What the actual in real-time speed showed is that the pilot
actually moved the target so that it would hit the train.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't have that information.

JEREMY SCAHILL: 12 people were killed, including an orthodox priest.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's terrible. But, I don't have the information.
When I looked at it, we didn't see that. All of the material was sent to The
Hague and they did not see that either.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Do you think you owe the people of Serbia who died in that
war an apology?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I don't because I did my duty as the commander for
NATO and for the United States. I think Slobodan Milosevic owes the people
of Serbia an apology, because we acted to prevent regional destabilization,
and to be honest, when you take the kinds of actions that he has done, he
was the proximate cause. All we tried to do was head off the ethnic
cleansing through diplomacy, and basically, he had a plan to go to war, no
matter what.

JEREMY SCAHILL: But now the U.S. is supporting a regime of ethnic cleansing
in Kosovo where all minorities have been forced out, including almost every
single Serb.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well you know, we are trying very hard not to allow
that to happen. And we have worked very hard with the Kosovo Albanians and
the Serbs, but to be honest with you that regime that's north of the Ibar
River is a regime that wants to prevent Serbs from living peacefully with
Kosovo Albanians. So, both sides have to share the blame. They have been
under the control of Seselj and also some under Milosevic and their tactic
in 1999 was to provoke the retaliation by the Albanians to be able to blame
the Albanians for reverse ethnic cleansing. There were -- there were crimes
on both sides and they needed to be investigated. To the best of my ability
as NATO commander at the time, we did.

JEREMY SCAHILL: But then why -- you have a man like Agim Ceku in power, a
man who was responsible for the ethnic cleansing of the Serbs at Kraina, a
man trained by MPRI in Virginia. Why put a man like that in charge? What
kind of message does that send to ethnic minorities in Kosovo, when a man
who is a basically a war criminal is in charge of what is going to be the
future army in Kosovo.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, we looked at his record and it's not clear that
he's going to be in charge of the future army of Kosovo. He did receive
instruction from a contracted U.S. firm at MPRI. He received basic
information after he became there in charge of the Kosovo protective corps.
We thought that was the best way to maintain order and security in the
country.

JEREMY SCAHILL: He has been accused of hate speech by the United Nations.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Lots of people in that part of the world have been
accused of hate speech, and they shouldn't do it. I met with Agim Ceku a few
times when I was over there, and I told him who I thought about it. I don't
accept that language.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Do you think that he should be in a position of power in
Kosovo?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you know, I'm so far removed from the issues
right now --

JEREMY SCAHILL: But you know him.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But I can’t – yeah – I know him, but what I have seen
of him, he is the one of the more reasonable people in that region.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Because in your ads you say you liberated a nation. And that
’s why I am asking you this question.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The thing is I have got to talk to some other voters.
Is that okay? Can you excuse me?

JEREMY SCAHILL: Absolutely. Thank you very much.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I am trying to answer all your questions.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Thank you I appreciate it. Thank you for being patient with
me.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
________________
Original text at:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/26/1632224