Direct Action <<>> RE: Who needs them? [2]

[Ivo Skoric]

In the middle of 18th century Western Europe was ripe with 
proggressive ideas - but they first found its realization with 
European exiles in the US, where there was not effective 
enforcement against them. Since the ideas behind Bill of Rights 
and the French Revolution are essentially the same, the 
proclamation of equality among people was the same, too. 
Practice of slavery, which most obviously contravenes that 
proclamation, does not however make the Constitution less logical, 
rational and precise. It does betray the moral doublespeak of early 
US leaders. But it was perfectly reasonable (it's the economy, 
stupid) for them to employ slave labor at that time, wasn't it? Of 
course, it did lay the foundation for the future displays of hypocrisy.
ivo

Date sent:      	Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:35:00 -0500
To:             	ivo at balkansnet.org
From:           	danilo <selb at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject:        	Re: Direct Action <<>> RE: Who needs them? [2]
Copies to:      	Laurie King-Irani <lkirani at uvic.ca>

dear Ivo,
You seem to forget that there was a Revolution in France soon 
after. 
One that condemned  (and forbid)  slavery and proclaimed equality 
among all humans, not just whites. Where is the American Voltaire? 
And we should not forget that soon after the "US were made" one of 
the worst "ethnic cleansing" began, one that ended in outright 
genocide. These kind of things tend to stay with you...they keep 
creeping back, as they do today with Bush's fascism (the term is used 
in the article bellow, sent by Miro). So, no, this country has not 
changed much to the worse, and its 18 century version could hardly be 
a model of democracy and modernity in either social or political 
terms...
Danilo
At 12:26 PM -0400 7/19/03, Ivo Skoric wrote:
>You are right - I do not look at the psychoanalitical dimension
>enough.
>
>When the US was made in late 18th century, it was the expression
>of the most modern, brightest ideas, that could not be realized in
>Europe, burdened by its un-democratic, bloated, greedy,
>bureaucratic monarchies, where most (if not all) of the original US
>founders came from. Europe came a long way since that, though.
>
>So, those brilliant people made a Constitution here, and it was all
>about being rational and precise and logical, making the first real
>capitalist democracy. Ahead of its time. But now it seems to be far
>behind. Its leaders seem to need a good psychoanalist...
>
>And that's not something one would expect from the leadership of
>the hyper-power, and certainly it is very dangerous. I think everyone
>remember what happened when a group of delusional people took
>control over another strong Western economy in the last century.
>
>ivo
>
>
>Date sent:     	Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:33:22 -0700
>From:          	Laurie King-Irani <lkirani at uvic.ca>
>To:            	ivo at balkansnet.org, JUSTWATCH-L 
><JUSTWATCH-L at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
>Subject:       	RE: Who needs them? [2]
>
>Dear Ivo,
>
>I don't think you are looking at the psychoanalytical dimension
>enough. All your points are rational and precise -- if one looks at
>this as simply a political or legal, or even martial, issue. But
>there is a big element of self-righteous indignation shading into
>sadism with this lot. Look at the way Bush turned down
>every attempt to appeal the death sentence when he was Governor
>in Texas, most notably the woman, Karla Fay Tucker, who had made
>a miraculous turnaround in prison, becoming a devout Christian and
>ministering to others. Even the guards were awed by her. She had
>clearly had a very deep and transformative experience, and had been
>high on drugs when she committed her crime (a particulary grisly murder
>with a friend as accomplice). But Bush took delight in frying her, and even
>made fun of her attempts to appeal in a way that was frankly repulsive.
>Not only  is Bush dim and morally deficient, he is also unhinged. But
>he is small potatoes compared to the people around him, who I would
>hazard to say are some of the most evil and selfish people ever to hold
>office in the USA. If they get in again, and win rather than steal, the next
>election, I am becoming a Canadian the next day.
>
>Sad for my country,
>
>Best,
>
>Laurie
>
>
>
>>I am completely perplexed as to why does the US government
>>need the military tribunals for terrorists?! I mean, if they already
>>decided that anybody declared by the President to be a terrorist is
>>as guilty as sin, denying those poor loosers any rights of due
>>process (no open trial, no trial by jury, no right to chose a lawyer,
>>no right to talk to anybody, no right to know all the evidence held
>>against you, no right to appeal to an independent judiciary), holding
>>them incomunicado at undisclosed places around the planet,
>>preferrably such places that condone torture, WHY there is a need
>>for tribunals at all? Military can just milk the information they need
>>with stress and duress techniques out of the unfortunate suckers
>>that got caught, and disappear them thereafter - who would know?
>  >This is simply a hipocrisy to allow for an illusion of justice, while
>>there is really no intention to dispense it. The most fantastic
>>aspect of the proposed tribunals is that even if the suspect is
>>acquitted there is no guarantee that he would walk - he may be
>>held continuously and indefinitely by the US authorities as a
>>security threat. What exactly would then the acquital actually
>>mean? And why on Earth would such a trial be neccessary to
>>anybody but a few Washington's sanctimonious bureaucrats?
>>
>>ivo
>
>Laurie King-Irani, Ph.D.
>Sessional Lecturer
>Department of Anthropology
>B-320 Cornett Building
>University of Victoria
>Victoria, BC, Canada
>V8W 2Y2
>
>
>lkirani at uvic.ca
>250/721-6159 (office)
>250/213-6872 (mobile)
>
>
>
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-- 
Danilo François Udovicki-Selb
Associate Professor
School of Architecture
University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX 78712
Phone: 512 471 0159
Fax" 512-471 0716