[syndicate] Re: a philosophical question

Thu Nov 28 17:27:43 CET 2002

Ivo,
I always read your messages, it's been very nice on those days when lapsing into voluntary isolation to have your voice here.
I don't think americans so much supported bombing Milosevic as they simply didn't care, they saw no threat to themselves... it happened a world away to strangers while they were safely in warm beds or eating substantial meals (americans don't let our homeless into the 'american' algorhythm, they're considered wildcards that have nothing to do with the "american system") and then it was over.  We have had a solipsistic (and arrogant) perspective of the world. True, there were voices of condemnation, but not enough and not organized enough to create a forum.
Now we see the aftermath of our political and economic short-sightedness.  People are scared and need a monster, they can accept the monster of a non-american filled with hate who wants to destroy us and unite against him.  They cannot accept our socio-economic presence here and in the world as the true monster.  The tragedy of losing over 2,000 people in a single act is horrific... but it is thanks to Enron and hundreds of other companies who played the numbers game that we have 100s of thousands out of work, a steep rise in foreclosures on homes leading to homelessness not seen since the Depression.  Is this on the news in the states?  Of course not, the 'war against terror,' the Dow Jones 'good news' report, sightings of Bin Laden or Saddam and the occasional natural catastrophe constitute the information diet from our news programs.  
The bombing of against Milosevic was done by a 'liberal' president... which added some credence to the 'necessity' of the act.  Although the 'humanitarian rights' sector stayed silent (or even supported Clinton in many cases) that wasn't a blanket support.  Unfortunately, the news here does not carry the voices of those taking a stance against government actions.  The news at that time was filled with stories of the massacre at a high school by 3 students. The average american was not even aware of the bombing.
One can only hope that the present state of affairs will lead americans to the understanding that they must live in and as part of the world... I don't see that happening right now... but Bush (whom I unaffectionately call 'the shrubbery) is only  a temporary figure.
Thanks again for your voice... Deb
 Ivo Skoric <ivo at reporters.net> wrote:Yes, curiously people are frightened here. Not only those on the 
left. But people in general: they all seem to be worrywarts. Prozac 
and Zoloft are making a killing. Since, everybody is anxious about 
everything: job security, health, housing, terrorists, muggers, drunk 
drivers, failing in school, offending someone, getting a bad haircut, 
getting screwed, appearing ridiculous, breaking a law. There is 
something wrong with the home of the brave. I notice that everyday 
in a way how people drive, how people behave on the street, what 
values do they prioritize, etc. It is as if the entire system is built 
with a single purpose of scaring people into obedience, the media, 
the law enforcement, the corporate workplace. The land of the free 
exists as some utopian afterlife proposition. It is here. But nobody 
dares to taste it. Now with the HSD, the US is trying to catch up to 
the old Soviet Union in establishing a more totalitarian state. With 
the population that already worry too much (the sniper case is a 
good example - in Bosnia snipers were active for 1000 days, yet 
people went after their business, in DC after 14 days parents 
refused to send their kids to school...), it is a recipe for fear. The 
beauty (from the government point of view) is that not much state 
violence is really needed to keep population in check at this level of 
anxiety. Eventually, people in the most free country in the world will 
tremble just at the tought of possibility of getting caught, without a 
cop in sight.
ivo

From: "Ed Hoffman" 
To: ivo at balkansnet.org
Copies to: syndicate at anart.no
Subject: Re: [syndicate] a philosophical question
Date sent: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:00:50 -0400

Yugoslavia posed no threat to the United States. It was a nice, clean, 
"surgical" strike in the minds of many (although, I am sure, not those on 
the ground), which we could support safely. Those of us on the left, like 
me, tend to worry and frighten easily. The right has the confidence of the 
insane, believing they are right all the time. We on the left are afraid 
that the attack on Iraq could spiral out of control, unleashing fanatacism 
across the globe. We must speak up without feeling like cowards.

>From: "Ivo Skoric" 
>Reply-To: ivo at balkansnet.org
>To: Ed Agro 
>Subject: [syndicate] a philosophical question
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:57:25 -0500
>
>I am confounded with the part of American human rights activist
>left, that lended its support to the Democrat Clinton for bombing of
>Yugoslavia, under the pretense of the humanitarian intervention,
>and that withholds the same support from the Republican Bush for
>bombing of Iraq, under the pretense of weapons of mass
>destruction removal.
>
>I do not argue that either Milosevic should not have been bombed
>or that Saddam should be bombed. I am just asking why was
>Clinton given permission on merits, and Bush is not? Was Clinton's
>reason more valuable? Was Clinton more persuasive?
>
>Because, if we look at both Yugoslavia and Iraq in strictly
>humanitarian terms, Saddam is no different from Milosevic in his
>propensity for disregard of human rights. I mean, he gassed Kurds.
>Milosevic never threw mustard gas on Kosovo, did he? Saddam's
>military, aided by American help just like Yugoslav was once,
>attacked Iran. Later it attacked Kuwait. Behavior of Iraqi soldiers in
>Kuwait was comparable to behavior of Serb soldiers in Bosnia, if
>not worse. He kills his political opponents, just as Milosevic did,
>only Saddam tortures them beforehand for his pleasure.
>
>And, yes, of course, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis died
>due to the first gulf war, subsequent tens years of bombing and
>crippling sanctions. As one may argue that on humanitarian
>grounds Saddam at least deserve the same fate as Milosevic, one
>may also argue that no bombing campaign can ever be dubbed
>humane. Which conclusion, then, must be applied to bombing of
>Yugoslavia, as well. It is the only honest way.
>
>Because, as Michael Moore, aptly noted in his recent release
>'Bowling for Columbine' - on the same day two teenagers with
>automatic weapons unleashed their anger on Columbine High
>School, NATO dropped the biggest payload of bombs in its 78
>days bombing campaign against Milosevic regime, accidentally
>hitting a high school, leaving more dead than the Columbine
>massacre did.
>
>ivo
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Ivo Skoric
>19 Baxter Street
>Rutland VT 05701
>802.775.7257
>ivo at balkansnet.org
>balkansnet.org
>
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