Direct Action <<>> Re: State Dept letter

[Ivo Skoric]

I did insert some comments.
ivo

Send reply to:  	"JKraljic" <JKraljic at email.msn.com>
From:           	"JKraljic" <JKraljic at email.msn.com>
To:             	<ivo at reporters.net>, "Bogdan Denitch" <ttd at igc.org>
Subject:        	Re: Direct Action <<>> Re: State Dept letter
Date sent:      	Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:39:52 -0500

Concerning citizenship, you can't just strip people of citizenship en 
mass.  That will, quite honestly, create a bigger mess than one 
has now.  How would one determine whether or not one "deserves" 
to remain a Croatian citizen?  It raises alot of problems.  The issue 
is not citizenship but electoral rights in Croatian elections by those 
Croatian citizens residing in BH.  

>>>That's correct. It is a messy issue. ANd one should 
concentrate on having those people vote just in one location, 
because it is unfair that they decide two governments, while for 
example other ex-Yugoslavs have no such opportunity. And a 
program should be worked out long term - over 5 years, maybe - on 
chosing citizenship.


Concerning the issue of Cro interference in BH, my feeling is that 
as long as YU has a special relationship with RS, there is no 
reason Croatia cannot have the same type of relationship with BH 
Croats.  Indeed, Dayton does not preclude such relationships.  
Moreover, it is simply utopian to beleive that Croatia as well as 
Serbia will not from time to time express their respective concerns 
with respect to the status of their co-ethnic groups in a neighboring 
state.  Ex-YU did not refrain from expressing its concerns with 
respect to Slovenian ethnics living in Austria (and sometimes in 
Italy) and never got raked over the coals for that by members of the 
international community.  Why should Cro politicians refrain from 
expressing such concerns (such as Tomac)?   

>>>Dayton is an imperfect cease-fire agreement, excellent in 
1995, lergely outdated today. BiH and Croatia do share a very long 
border, and yes it is utopian to believe that Croatia and Serbia will 
simply abandon their designs on Bosnia. But, then, agreements 
like SAA are supposed to make such designs more socially 
acceptable within the international framework. As for the parallel 
with former Yugoslavia and Slovenian minority in Austria, it does 
not fly well. After all, did Slovenian minority in Austria ever shelled 
Graz or Klagenfurt with mortars? I think that if they did, and if 
international community found out that they were armed and 
supported by SFRY, Belgrade would be visited by JDAM-s much 
earlier.

Even apart from the emotional, national connections, HR shares its 
longest border with BH.  HR has vital, strategic interests related to 
what happens in the state next door and cannot simply put down a 
curtain and ignore issues related to, for example, catching all 
indicted war criminals, respect for the constitutional rights of 
Croats in BH, etc.  I think that this is necessary because the 
international community does not really care what is going on in 
BH as long as it is quiet and it is necessary to have a "squekey 
wheel" to look over the shoulder of Ashdown.  

>>>No. Croatia can't abandon caring about what happens in BiH. 
But it should make steps to help BiH become more stable, more 
democratic, more economically viable, more peaceful state - after 
all that would be in Croatia's interest, to have BiH as a peer, and 
not as a chaotic mess of ethnic hate, mafia run businesses, and 
international military forces.

Indeed, despite Tomac's statements, Racan and President Mesic 
have more or less ignored everything that's been going on in BH.  
Despite Petrisch's imperial role, little came from HR which 
criticized him, except at the very end of his term.  I am not calling 
for a return to pre-2000 policies, but my sense is that this govt has 
gone to the extreme opposite and more or less washed its hands 
of the matter.  Tomac's statements are nothing more than window 
dressing and have no substance.  Perhaps I'm missing something, 
but there has been no interference on HR's part in the internal 
workings of BH since 2000.  

>>>I also got the same impression. But apparently - it was just 
Mesic's statements that lead to widespread impression that 
Croatia changed its course - while in reality Racan's actions did not 
confirm that. Tomac was never my favorite politician - particularly 
because everybody knows that he was an udba snitch for years.

I understand Bogdan's criticism regarding the visa regime.  But, I 
think one  needs to distinguish between issues concerning 
normalization between the two states and normalization when it 
comes to person to person contact.  In my opinion, it is difficult to 
argue that there is no normalization on a state level especially 
when HR and YU just signed a free trade agreement earlier this 
week and presumably (?!) settled the Prevlaka issue.  Croatian and 
Yugoslav products have already been going across each state's 
border with ease while, I believe as Ivo has told me, the border with 
Lipovljani is a "normal" now as any other border crossing.  YU has 
had an embassy in ZG and a consulate in RI for years.  

>>>Yeah - Croatia and FRY have 'normalized' relations like US and 
Mexico do: free trade agreement. But essentially there is a high 
barbed wire fence between the US and Mexico, isn't it? I would 
rather see relations between Croatia and FRY to be like between 
Germany and France. Of course, I understand that it is expected 
from Kostunica and Djindjic to do some more groveling and 
repentance for that to happen.

It is undoubtedly a different issue when one keeps in mind person 
to person relations - thus, I still find it difficult to beleive that there 
will be any large number of Serb tourists coming to HR this 
summer, with the possible exception of Dubrovnik.  But don't forget 
- Milosevic was still in power a scant 2 years ago (that is, after the 
2000 elections in HR) and the Great Serbian current remains more 
than perceptibly strong in YU.   

John Kraljic

>>>All the more reasons for the presently strongest republic in the 
region to reach out to those forces in the neighboring countries that 
would help her interests (first, of course, she would need to 
recognize them....).

Ivo






  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ivo Skoric 
  To: Bogdan Denitch 
  Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 6:57 PM
  Subject: Re: Direct Action <<>> Re: State Dept letter


  Yes, I do get carried away with my rants, sometimes, I agree.

  Essentially, it is not very smart to defend Racan's government in whatever it does, I am learning
 a lesson. He lead an incompetent administration in 1989, and, uncapable of forming a policy to con
tain Milosevic's threat, he lost to Tudjman in 1990. He got a second chance, only, perhaps, because
 Tudjman died. And, again, he leads an incompetent administration, that sometimes even manages to m
ake enemies of the groups with opposite demands.

  In his struggle to please everybody, in the end he pleases nobody. Widely, it is perceived that, 
since his party was in opposition to Tudjman's, his politics would be different. Croatians living a
broad often scorn him for his uncritical cooperation with so-called 'international community.' On t
he other hand, the same 'i.c.' scorns him for his politics of appeasement of the right wing, i.e. f
or non- cooperation. Apparently, despite the perception of change, there was not much real departur
e from Tudjman's policies in that areas of interest to the 'i.c.' 

  On the contrary: it got worse. The famous "normalization agreement" with Belgrade was signed by M
ate Granic, while Croatia was still governed by HDZ and Tudjman, and regrettably there were no deve
lopments in sense of visa abolishment since (although those were planned). And, while the media kee
ps saying how Tudjman did not cooperate with The Hague, but Racan's government does, in truth, Tudj
man sent some 10 Bosnian Croats to the ICTY, while Racan still did not send anyone. 

  However, most of your points of contention require a separate elaboration.

  DUAL CITIZENS OF BOSNIA - I already wrote on several occassions, how I think that either all citi
zens of Bosnia should hold dual citizenship, or just those who acquired the second citizenship thro
ugh exile abroad. With Mesic and Racan being in the beginning of their reign so adamantly supportiv
e of the idea that Bosnian Croats are citizens of Bosnia, and subjects to Bosnian law, I thought th
at Bosnian Croats were stripped of their Croatian citizenship a long time ago. If Croatian citizens
 with dual citizenship, that do not live in Croatia, are allowed to vote in Croatia, then they are 
voting on laws that will not be implemented on them, which is against the constitutional principal 
of equality. On top of that, since Croats in Bosnia generally vote for HDZ, I believed the Racan go
vernment would have acted quickly to take away their right to vote. Now, however, it seems that Rac
an i
  http://www.osce.org/croatia/news_in_brief/archive/180602.pdf 
  On the other hand it is not true that at least some Serbs in BiH do not hold dual citizenship - a
nd BiH and Yugoslavia just agreed to let them keep it.
  http://www.balkantimes.com/html2/english/021030-GEORGI- 001.htm
  There is also an interesting twist to it: some Bosnian ministers travel around the world using Cr
oatian passport, because it is easier to travel - Bosnian passport needs visa to go anywhere...
  http://www.ohr.int/ohr-dept/presso/bh-media-rep/round- ups/default.asp?content_id=6960#5

  PLOCE PORT
  I don't see a reason why everything in the Balkans need to be settled by special, extraordinray a
greements, instead of just having the market sorts things out. I hope I am not sounding too liberal
, but Rotterdam is a Dutch port, operated by Dutch, and German companies are free and welcome to us
e it. The control of the port is in private hands of multinational corporations, anyway. Why does P
loce Port need to be run by a 7 member inter-state committee? It does seem impossible to me that an
y Croatian government will agree on the second largest port in the Republic being run by some commi
ttee, particularly, since 4 of 7 members are supposed to be non-Croatian citizens.
  http://www.ohr.int/ohr-dept/presso/bh-media-rep/round- ups/default.asp?content_id=6688

  MEDJUGORJE ROAD
  Of course, I would apply the same abovementioned principles on this issue as well. No tarrifs, no
 customs, no visas. Open roads.

  VOLUNTARILY ABANDONED FLATS
  Under Tudjman, Croatian authorities denied the refugees' right to return to their flats or buy th
em because they had not lived in them "for over 6 months". However, in November 2001 the Supreme Co
urt of the Republic of Croatia annulled that discriminating decision taken during the rule of the H
DZ. Still, disappointingly, they are preventing the return of refugees by legally deeming those apa
rtment abandoned voluntarily. However, that language ('voluntary abandonment') is also used by NATO
 and UN when applied to Serbs that left Sarajevo. Maybe, it can be considered that Serbs indeed lef
t their homes out of their free will, but in that case, this should not legally prevent them from r
eturning to their homes, now. After all, I can leave my flat in New York city and go live for 6 mon
ths in Vermont and Bloomberg will not confiscate my apartment and tell me that I can't come back (I
 mig
  http://www.helsinki.org.yu/refugee_detail.php?lang=en&idgnrc=354
  http://www.nato.int/ifor/un/u960206a.htm

  VISAS, RIGHTS, AND RECIPROCITY
  Again, I thought the visas are gone a long time ago. Now, people around me are telling me they ar
e not. I am against visas in principle. I would abolish them worldwide. I don't see a particular us
e for visas between Croatia and its former Yugoslav neighbors. I think that bureaucracies in the em
erging societies of post-Yugoslav era, are simply too bloated, slow and self-serving, keeping the v
isas and similar reactionary edifices of the communist past as the means of self-justification. Aga
in, it is disappointing that Racan did not do much to change this. But, then, that just serves as a
 proof of his administrative incompetence. On the other hand, I cannot agree that reciprocity is bu
llshit. I believe that what applies to Croats, applies to Serbs and vice versa. I am interested in 
the equal rights protection.

  IMPORTANT, DESERVING, AND SOVEREIGN
  Lastly, I think that every country should be treated the same way in matters of sovereignty. Thus
 I welcome Canadian Quakers initiative to inspect the U.S. weapons of mass destruction sites. There
 are no countries more important or more deserving under the international law. Items checked in Ma
ggie's letter are mostly of bilateral nature concerning Croatia and its neighbors (Ploce Port, Medj
ugorje Road, dual citizenship, visas, ...), and this is how they should be treated and resolved. Th
ere is no place for U.S. or any other power's pressure in those issues. If the U.S. doesn't like it
 - maybe Croatia doesn't need that kind of help. I think, anyway, that there are no particular bene
fits for Croatia joining NATO. The return of refugees is a human rights issue, and can't be ignored
 by the 'international community' - but the two should not be mixed.

  ivo

  To: direct_action at yahoogroups.com
  From: Bogdan Denitch <ttd at igc.org>
  Date sent: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:10:48 -0500
  Subject: Re: Direct Action <<>> Re: State Dept letter
  Send reply to: direct_action at yahoogroups.com


  Ivo,

  You do carried away with your rants sometimes!
  To begin with Croatia has not "settled: her relations with her neighbors.
  The special status of Croatians (almost all dual citizens) in Bosnia would be
  unacceptable if it were extended to Serbs, Croatian politicians (vide; Tomac)
  are constantly messing in Bosnian politics and Croatia has blocked the use of
  Ploce as a port for Bosnian imports despite all kinds of agreements. On the
  other hand they insist on a special regime for auto traffic to and from
  Dubrovnik and to Medjugorje.
  Secondly the visa regime the Croat Embassy insists on in Belgrade is
  demeaning and intolerable, refugees are having an impossible time getting
  their homes back not to spear of a return of apartments which the Croat law
  treats as "voluntarily abandoned". Thus neither have they normalized the
  relations with Serbia/Yugoslavia nor is it true that the government wants to
  settle the issues of refugees. Demanding reciprocity is bullshit since the
  Serb refugees from Croatia are its citizens
  and their rights should not have anything to do with how other governments
  treat their minorities. We still into collective guilt here.
  Lastly Ivo it is bull to demand that Croatia be treated the same way as the
  US in matters of sovereignty. It is Croatia which is the petitioner and
  asking for help and there is no inherent reason why it should deserve help
  from the US automatically, there are both more important countries (from the
  point of view of US interests) and far more "deserving" countries from the
  point of need and suffering.

  As Americans we should beat up on US imperial bullying, but as Croat citizens
  we should not back Racan's bullshit and lying when minority rights are in
  question. They are terrible in Croatia and not improving much even eight
  years after the war. Merry Christmas and a happy New Year
  Bogdan



  Ivo Skoric wrote:

  > Well, Maggie obviously has no clue about what Croatians at home
  > and abroad really aspire to. She thinks that they aspire to Euro-
  > Atlantic integrations. Which is not all that wrong. But then she
  > proceeds to check the items required for fullfillment of such
  > aspirations, as they are defined by the State Department, not by
  > the Croatian people.
  >
  > So, we read, ok, Racan did that well, and he did that well, but he
  > still needs to do that and that, to make the country eligible to
  > proceed with those integrations. In other words, she is merrily
  > approving of Racan's sycophantic signing of SAA, his
  > obsequiousness in the participation in the NATO war games, but
  > she notes that there are still other difficult steps to be taken to
  > demonstrate shared democratic values and standards.
  >
  > There is nothing in her letter that would give even a vague hint that
  > they are prepared to accept Croatia in so-called Euro-Atlantic
  > integrations under any other conditions but those that they
  > dictated, with a complete disregard of the will of Croatian people
  > and their elected representatives. However, how could that be the
  > demonstration of democratic values and standards, if Racan does
  > what he is commanded to do by the U.S. administration, in patent
  > contravention of the wishes of the Croatian electorate? They force
  > him to behave undemocratically, and only then they are prepared to
  > give him a passing grade on the democratic values and standards.
  > What hypocrites!
  >
  > As for the three things still needed to be completed under the US
  > plan for Croatia's democracy: encouraging refugees to return,
  > transferring indicted war criminals to The Hague, and normalizing
  > relations with its neighbors - I think she is factually wrong on two of
  > the three. Racan's government normalized relations with its
  > neigbors - it gave in on Piran bay to do that with Slovenia, it gave in
  > on many things (war reparations, Sljivancanin, Perisic, Prevlaka,
  > etc.) to do that with Serbia/Montenegro, and it gave up on Croats in
  > Bosnia to do that with Bosnia, and there was never any problem in
  > relations with Hungary, which makes all the neighbors accounted
  > for. What exactly is her point there? I would definitely ask her to
  > clarify that. Maybe her geography is not any better than her boss's.
  >
  > Also, Racan's government relentlessly encourages refugees to
  > return. They are not returning because they are fine where they
  > presently are, or because they are scared of old neighbors that
  > they mistreated, or because there indeed are forces in Croatia that
  > are against their return - but Racan's government has nothing to do
  > with that. This is like holding US government responsible for every
  > NYPD or LAPD racial excess like Abner Louima or Rodney King.
  >
  > So, it boils down to the delivery of Bobetko and Gotovina to The
  > Hague. Again, Racan's government would do that at any time, if
  > that would not weaken their already weak political position in the
  > country. It really is a very sickening situation that Croatia is left to
  > assert its sovereignty by witholding the transfer of indicted war
  > criminals - being that everything else was already taken from her. I
  > think Maggie needs to meditate on why is that so, a little.
  >
  > ivo
  >
  > ps - Racan, on the other hand, should say NO to NATO, reduce
  > military spending, and decriminalize cannabis.
  >
  > -/-
  >
  > So, here is the State Dept. letter:
  >
  > Dear Ms. Foley,
  >
  > Thank you for your November 20 letters to Secretary of State Colin
  > Powell and Nat. Security Advisor Dr. Condoleezza Rice, regarding
  > Croatia's Euro-Atlantic aspirations. I have been asked to respond
  > on their behalf. The democratic government of Prime Minister
  > Racan has taken significant steps to resolve the country's
  > outstanding post-war issues, strengthen its economy and advance
  > the country's efforts to join euro-Atlantic institutions. Croatia's
  > signature of a Stabilization and Association Agreement with the EU
  > and its participation in NATO's Membership Action Plan are
  > tangible symbols that international community recognizes these
  > achievements. Membership in the EU and NATO requires not
  > only the economic and military compatibility of member states, bur
  > also the demonstration of shared democratic values and standards.
  > Therefore, it is crucial for Croatia to resolve its outstanding post-war
  > issues -- to encourage refugees to return, to transfer those indicted
  > for war crimes to the Hague and to fully normalize relations with its
  > neighbors.
  >
  > the Racan government, with the strong suppport of President
  > Mesic, has taken some difficult steps toward this end, and by
  > continuing to take such actions, will move the country further down
  > the path towards full integration with the european community. I
  > hope that the Croatian Diaspora will give its full support to their
  > efforts.
  >
  > Sincerely,
  >
  > signed: Maggie Nardi
  > Croatia Desk Officer

  --------------------------------------------------------- Ivo Skoric 19 Baxter Street Rutland VT 
05701 802.775.7257 ivo at balkansnet.org balkansnet.org 
---------------------------------------------------------
Ivo Skoric
19 Baxter Street
Rutland VT 05701
802.775.7257
ivo at balkansnet.org
balkansnet.org