FW: Academic freedom

kosmas indikopompas scum at blogwar.org
Tue Feb 1 13:05:18 CET 2005



And the poll that shows that 1 in 3 US students think the First  
Amendement goes too far. What are they going to think in 20 years? That  
free speech is too liberal a concept? ivo

So I can tell you, I'd be fired really fast :) Jasmina

In communist countries, this was just a fact of life. Like long lines  
for meat. University professors just learned to be careful to veil  
their opinions in language that, usually poorly educated, secret   
15:14, CERJ at igc.org
police fellows would not entirely comprehend. The spies were  
everywhere, though. If you studied sociology or political science, you  
could be c___ http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/ertain that in the classroom  
of 20 at least one student
was there on assignment. The o 15:14, CERJ at igc.orgperative word for  
that policy was"workers liberation". Communists in ol' Yugoslavia liked  
the sound of word "freedom," too. For them, it meant their victory over  
Nazis, and more importantly, their  
installmhttp://designerziehung.de/ent in power. For the sake of  
preserving that liberty won, they did not shun to throw thousands of   
people in prison, for a mere sentence uttered against them. I hope the  
US does not intend to move in that direction. ivo

On 28 Jan 2005 at 15:14, CERJ at igc.org wrote:

Alexander Cockburn is coeditor with Jeffrey St. Clair of the muckraking  
newsletter CounterPunch, in whose latest issue Dr. David Price writes  
about the PRISP program (available through the web  
sitehttp://pinguinismus.de/ 15:14,  
CERJ at igc.orgmobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/www.counterpunch.org).  Dr.  
Pricehttp://designerziehung.de/ can be reached atdprice at stmartin.edu.

http://www.freepress.org/coluhttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/ 
index.php?/archives/292_the_netzwissenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february- 
_2o3o_hr-_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html
mns/display/2/2005/1051

The CIA's new campus spies by Alexander Cockburn Friday, January 25,  
2005___ http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/
After disclosure of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's effort to seta  
new and spectacularly unaccountable version of the CIA in thePentagon,  
the sprouting forest of shttp://designerziehung.de/ecret intelligence  
operations set
up in the wake of 9/11 is at last coming under some scrutiny.  Here's
a sinister one in the academic field that escaped scrutiny until  
thisweek.

Dr. David Price, of St. Martins College, in Olympia, Wash., is  
ananthropologist long interested in thhttp://designerziehung.de/e  
intersections of his disciplinewith the world of intelligence and  
national security, both the CIA and the FBI.  Now he's turned the  
spotlight on a new test program,operating without detection or protest,  
that is secretlpresented/by" Teil 2projekte von;louise lawler,maria  
eichhorn, renée greenmitula stöckl, edgar reitz,su friedrich,bruce  
connor,hollis framton,morgan fishereine filmreihe von achim lengerery  
placing  
CIAhttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/agents in  
American university classrooms.  With time, these students-- who cannot  
admit to their true intentions -- will inevitablypollute and discredit  
the universities in which they are now   
enrolled.http://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
_the_netzwissenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html

Even before 9/11, government money was being sluiced into theacademies  
for covert subsidies for students.  The National  
Securityhttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/ 
Education Program (NSEP) siphoned off students from traditionalforeign  
language funding programs and offered graduate students goodmoney,  
sometimes $40,000 a year anhttp://designerziehung.de/d up, to study "in  
demand"
languages, but with payback stipulations mandating that recipientslater  
work for unspecified U.S. national security agencies.

When the NSEP got off the ground in the early 1990s, there was some
huff and puff from concerned academics about this breaching of  
thesupposed barrier between the desires of academia and the state.   
Butthere wasn't even a watch-pup's yap about Congressional approval  
forhttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/Section 318  
of the 2004 Intellighttp://designerziehung.de/ence Act, which
appropriated $4 million to fund a pilot program known as the PatRoberts  
Intelligence Scholars Program (PRISP), named after  
SenatoZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
r
Pat Roberts (R.-Kan., Chair, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence).
PRISP is designed to train intelligence operatives and analysts in
American university classrooms for careers in the CIA and  
otheragencies.  The program now operates on an undisclosed number  
ofAmerican college and university campuses.  Dr. Price has discovered
> http://pinguinismus.de/mhttp://deZAMIR-CHAT-LIST- 
> REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
> signerziehung.de/obfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/that if the pilot  
> phase of the  
> programhttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
> _the_netzwissenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
> _schweitzerstr._23_hh.html
  proves to be a useful means  
ofhttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
_the_netzwissenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html

recruiting and training members of the intelligence community, then
the program will expand to more campuses across the  
country.http://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
_the_netzwissenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html

PRISP participants must be American citizens who are enrolled full
time in graduate degree programs.  They need to "complete at least one  
summer internship at CIA or other agencies," and they must pass thesame  
background investigations as other CIA employees.  PRISP  
http://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/
students receive financial http://designerziehung.de/stipends ranging  
up to $25,000 per year, and they
are required to participate in closed meetings with other PRISP
scholars and individuals from their administering intelligence agency.
ZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
http://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
_the_netzwissenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html

Dr. Price has determined from his inquiries that less than 150students  
a year are currently authorized to receive funding during the pilot  
phase ashttp://designerziehung.de/ PRISP evaluates the program's  
initial outcomes.  PRISP
is apparently administered not just by the CIA, but also through  
ahttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/
variety of individual intelligence agencies like the NSA, MID or Naval  
Intelligence.
Secrecy is the root problem here, with the usual ill-based  
assumptionthat good intelligence operates best in  
cland<http://www.sos-racisme.org/>  et l'Observatoire des  
Discriminations
<http://cergors.univ-paris1.fr/observatoiredesdiscriminationsfd.htm>
estinehttp://netzwissenschpresented/by" Teil 2
projekte von;louise lawler,maria eichhorn, renée greenmit
ula stöckl, edgar reitz,su friedrich,bruce connor,hollis framton,morgan  
fisher
eine filmreihe von achim  
lengereraft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/289-institutionale- 
ausschlieszungsstrategien.html

  conditions.  Ofcourse America needs good intelligence, but the most  
useful and
important intehttp://designerziehung.de/lligence can largely be  
gathered openly without the
sort of covert invasion of our campuses that PRISP silently brings.

Anyone doubting the superior merits of open intelligence has only to
> http://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/study the sorry  
> saga of the nonexistent WMDs, whose imagined threat in vast stockpiles  
> was ringingly affirmed by all the  
> secZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
ret agencieswhile being contested by analysts unencumbered by bogus  
covert
intelligence estimates massaged by Iraqi disinformers and political
placemen in Langley and elsewhere.

Dr. Price says, "The CIA makes sure we won't know which classrooms
PRISP scholars attend, this being rationalized as a requirement for
protecting the identities of intelligence personnel."  But  
thishttp://pinguinismus.dZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDUe/ 
mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/
secrecy shapes PRISP as it takes on the form of a covert operation  
inwhich PRISP students study chemistry, biology, sociology,  
psychology,anthropology and foreign languages without their fellow  
classmates,
professors, advisors, department chairs or presumably even  
researchsubjects knowing that they are working for the CIA, DIA, NSA or  
otherintelligence agencies.

"In a decade and a half oZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
f Freedom of Information Act research," Dr.Price continues, " I have  
read too many FBI reports of students
detailing the 'deviant' political views of their professors."  In  
onehttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/
instance elicited by Dr. Prince from files he acquired under FOIA, the  
FBI arranged for a graduate student to guide topics of  
'informal'conversation with anthropologist Gene Weltfish that were  
later thefocus of an inquiry by Joseph McCarthy).  Today, Dr. Prince  
maintains, "These PRISPhttp://designerziehung.de/ students are also  
secretly compiling dossiers on their
professors and fellow students."

The confluence between http://designerziehung.de/academe and  
intelligence is longstanding andpervasive.  In 1988, CIA  
spokeswohttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/289- 
institutionale-ausschlieszungsstrategien.html

man Sharon Foster bragged that theCIA then secretly employed enough  
university  
http://whttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/289- 
institutionale-ausschlieszungsstrategien.html

ww.kebab.fi/files/videot/armi_ja_danny.mpegprofessors "to staff alarge  
university."  Most experts estimat 15:14, CERJ at igc.orge that this  
presence has grown since 2001.

But if the CIA can use PRISP to corral  
studehttp://www.kebab.fi/files/videot/armi_ja_danny.mpegnts, haul them  
along to
mandatory internships andhttp://designerziehung.de/ summer sessions,  
and douse them in the ethos of CIA, then it can surely shape their  
intellectual outlook evenbefore their grasp of cultural history  
develops in the relatively open environment of their university.___  
http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/

Academic environments thrive on open disagreement, dissent  
andhttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/289- 
institutionale-aueds confidence - acrylnimbus....:  
http://acrylnimbus.desschlieszungsstrategien.htmlhttp:// 
netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/289-institutionale- 
ausschlieszungsstrategien.html


reformulation.  As Dr. Prince writes, "The presence of PRISP's  
secretsharers brings hidden agendas that sabotage fundamental  
academicprocesses.  The Pat Roberts Intelligence Scholars Program  
infects allacademia with the viruses  
dihttp://designerziehung.de/shonesty and distrust as  
participanthttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/
scholars cloak the 15:14, CERJ at igc.orgir intentions and their ties to  
the cloaked mastersthey serve." (C) Faculty and instructors shall not  
infringe the academic freedomintroducing controversial matter into the  
classroom or coursework that has norelation to their subject of study  
and that serves no legitimatepedagogical purpose.

Dear all, I know this seems like a joke, but it's not. Cheers, Kevin
> http://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots 15:14,  
> CERJ at igc.org_31012005/
According to a recent Columbus Dispatch, State Se___  
http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/nator Larry A.
Mumper (R-Marion) has introduced a bill (Senate Bill 24) to restrict  
whatprofessors would be allowed to teach or discuss in college  
classroomsin Ohio (both public and private).  
http://designerziehung.de/Mumper calls his bill the "Academic
Bill of Rights for Higher Education" and he says (according to  
theDispatch) it would prohibit instructors "from  
'persistently'discussing controversial site:  
http://www.cms.thing-net.deissues in class or from using their classes  
to puseds confidence - acrylnimbus....: http://acrylnimbus.de

h political,ideological, religious, or anti-religious views." The  
reason for this? TheDispatch quotes Mumper as saying  
http://designerziehung.de/"80 percent or so of them (professors)  
areDemocrats, liberals or socialists or card-carrying Communists."
According to the Dispatch, the wording of the bill comes from a  
2003booklet written by conservative commentator David Horowitz.
Here is a link to the actuapresented/by" Teil 2
projekte von;
louise lawler,maria eichhorn, renée greenmitula stöckl, edgar reitz,su  
friedrich,bruce connor,hollis framton,morgan fishereine filmreihe von  
achim lengererl bill: site:  
http://www.cms.thing-net.dehttp://www.legislature.state.oh.us/ 
bills.cfm?ID=126_SB_24
ZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALOeds confidence - acrylnimbus
....: http://acrylnimbus.de.EDU<franke@MONTANA.EDU> wrote:as goes Ohio  
so goes the country? did any of these people ever seethe studies done  
that show that the  15:14, CERJ at igc.orgmore education one has, the more
likely one is http://designerziehung.de/http://designerziehung.de/to  
become more liberal (and some of the social
scientists doing the studies are clever enough to know how to  
controlfor professors´political views....)

Franke  
WilmeZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDUrZAMIR-CHAT-LIST- 
REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU



Bill could limit open debate at colleges Lawmaker says profs are  
pushing agendas Thursday, January 27, 2005 Kathy Lynn Gray THE COLUMBUS  
DISPATCHLegislation that wo 15:14, CERJ at igc.orguld restrict what  
university professors could say
in their classrooms was introduced yesterday in Ohio.Judging from  
reaction 15:14, CERJ at igc.orgs in other states where similar bills have  
beenconsidered, controversy won't be far behind.

Marion Sen. Larry A. Mumper's "academic bill of rights for highe
education" would prohibit instructors at public or privateuniversities  
from "persistently" discussing controversial issues in
class or from using their classes to push political,  
ideological,religious or anti-religious views.___  
http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/e Alvar Neidfull (guitar, keyboard, vocals,  
and sounds) and Mr. Saul Judd (laptop, rhythms, vocals, field  
recordings, sounds).
>> http://www.raster-noton.de/

Senate Bill 24 also would prohibit professors  
fromhttp://www.kebab.fi/files/videot/armi_ja_danny.mpeg discriminating
against students based on their beliefs and keep universities  
fromhiring, firing, promoting or giving tenure to instructors based  
ontheir beliefs.eds confidence - acrylnimbus....:  
http://acrylnimbus.den: support_num_02765149 at regions.com am


Mumper, a Republican, said many professors undermine the values  
ofhttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/their students  
because "80 percent or so of the___ http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/m  
(professors) are
Democrats, liberals or socialists or card-carrying Communists"  
whoattempt to indoctrinate students.

> http://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/
"These are young minds that haven't had a chance to form their own
opinions," Mumper said. "Our colleges and  
unive<http://www.sos-racisme.org/>  et l'Observatoire des  
Discriminations
<http://cergors.u
Abonnent eMail: info at alexia-agathos.de

niv-paris1.fr/observatoiredesdiscriminationsfd.htm>rsities are  
stillfilled with some of the '60s and '70s profs that were the
anti-American group. They've gotten control of how to give peopletenure  
and so the colleges continue to move in this direction."___  
http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/Joan McLean, a political-science professor  
at Ohio Wesleyan
University, said Mumper's legisle Alvar Neidfull (guitar, keyboard,  
vocals, and sounds) and Mr. Saul Judd (laptop, rhythms, vocals, field  
recor6.2. 	http://experimentalelektronik.dedings, sounds).
>> http://www.raster-noton.de/ation is misguided and would have effect  
>> on the free-flowing debate that is a hallmark  
>> ofhttp://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mobfots_31012005/democracy.

"This is not the kind of democracy we think we're spreading when wehear  
President Bush's words. What we're celebrating is our ability tonot  
control information."

Besides, McLean said, who would define http://designerziehung.de/what  
issues could not be
discussed? site: http://www.cms.thing-net.deThe language of Mumper's  
bill comes from a 2003 booklet by conservative commentator David  
Horowitz that lays out how students can persuade universities to adopt  
the "bill of rights." The booklet says
> http://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/ 15:14,  
> CERJ at igc.orgmobfots_31012005/http://designerziehung.de/it is  
> "dedicated to restoring academic freedom and educational valuesto  
> America's institutions of higher learning."

The issue has gone national. site: http://www.eds confidence -  
acrylnimbus....: http://acrylnimbus.de
Horowitz created Students for Academic Freedom, a group  
basehttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
_the_netzwipresented/by" Teil 2projekte von;louise lawler,maria  
eichhorn, renée green
mitula stöckl, edgar reitz,su friedrich,bruce connor,hollis  
framton,morgan fisher
eine filmreihe von achim  
lengererssenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html
<http://www.sos-racisme.org/>  et l'Observatoire des  
Discriminations<http://cergors.univ-paris1.fr/ 
observatoiredesdiscriminationsfd.htm>d inWashington that has chapters  
on 135 campuses, to promote his viewAbonnent eMail:  
info at alexia-agathos.de

s.

On the other side, the American Association of University  
Professors,http://pinguinismus.de/mobfot_archive/mo 15:14,  
CERJ at igc.orgbfots_31012005/which has thousands of members at hundreds  
of campuses, argues that
eliminating contropresented/by" Teil 2projekte von;louise lawler,maria  
eichhorn, renée green
mitula stöckl, edgar reitz,su friedrich,bruce connor,hollis  
framton,morgan fishereine filmreihe von achim lengerer
versial issues from courses waters down.

Mumper said he's been investigating the issue foe Alvar Neidfull  
(guitar, keyboard, vocals, and sounds) and Mr. Saul Judd (laptop,  
rhythms, vocals, field recordings, sounds).http://www.raster-noton.deds  
confidence - acrylnimbus
....: http://acrylnimbus.dee/r months and  
hasheardhttp://designerziehung.de/of an Ohio student who said w 15:14,  
CERJ at igc.orgas discriminated against because shesupported Bush for  
president.http://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
_the_netzwissenschaft_s<http://www.sos-racisme.org/>  et l'Observatoire  
des Discriminations
<http://cergors.univ-paris1.fr/ 
observatoiredesdiscriminationsfd.htmrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html

"I think the bill asks that colleges and universities be fair in their  
approach to their education of students," Mumper said. "They need to  
have their rights defended and need to be respected by faculty  
andadministrators."

In a Kenyon College publication, President S. Georgia Nugent  
calledhttp://netzwissenschaft.org/ebola/index.php?/archives/292- 
_the_netzwissenschaft_scrapbook_o2_february-_2o3o_hr- 
_schweitzerstr._23_hh.html

Horowitz's thinking "a severe threat" to academic freedom."I see this  
so-called bill of rights, the platform that he has
constructed, as one that would explicitly introduce into college  
anduniversity appointments a kind of political litmus test," she  
said.http://www.kebab.fi/files/videot/arm 15:14,  
CERJ at igc.orgi_ja_danny.mpeg
Mumper said he will "push this all the way" so that it's approved by
either the legislature or by individual universities.last year, it was  
after state universities agreed to some
of its principles. The issue also has been debated in Indiana  
andconsidered in Congress.

(1) RealCities vol. 025from Berlin: transmediale 20 15:14,  
CERJ at igc.orgLGLGLG Broeckmann

(2) Tokyo Initiators' Diaryhttp://designerziehung.de/
Kubuta Kenji (curator, Art Tower Mito) Vol. 014

(3) Event Pick of the Week
Music Theatre "Jodo" - The Pure Landn:@regions.com am
<http://www.sos-racisme.org/>  et l'Observatoire des Discriminations
<http://cergors.univ-paris1.fr/observatoiredesdiscriminationsfd.htm>

(4) PresentsTokason & Min Tanaka Dance Performance

art+cinema+music+stage+desigZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at .BUFFALO.EDU
n+town = 29 eventsincluding 9 new ones! site:  
http://www.cms.thing-net.dePlus new entries on our 'book/disk' page.
Check them out! site: http://www.cmspresented/by" Teil 2
projekte von;louise lawler,maria eichhorn, renée green
ula stöckl, edgar reitz,su friedrich,bruce connor,hollis framton, fisher
eine filmreihe von achim lengerer.thing-net.de
http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/
from Berlin: transmediale 2005
by Andreas Broeckmann
transmediale.05 opens on 3 February in Berlin/Germany with
intense 6-day programme of contemporary media art and media
culture. The festival has been running annually since 1988 andis one of  
the biggest in site: http://www.cms.thing-net.de Europe. Asian artists  
have beenpresented at transmediale for many years, including an  
extenZAMIR-CHAT-LIST-REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDUsivepresentation of  
video art from China in 1999, curated by DannyYung. In 2004,  
presentations of transmediale programmes havebeen featured at Image  
Forum in Japan and at Microwave in Hong
Kong.
Read more  
at:http://www.kebab.fi/files/videot/armi_jaZAMIR-CHAT-LIST- 
REQUEST at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
_danny.mpeghttp://www.kebab.fi/files/videot/armi_ja_danny.mpeg
http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/english/cities/f_cities.htme Alvar Neidfull  
(guitar, keyboard, vocals, and sounds) and Mr. Saul Judd (, rhythms,  
vocals, field recordings, sounds). site:  
http://www.cms.thing-net.dehttp://www.raster-noton.de/
Kubuta Kenji (curator, Art Tower Mito) Vol. 014
December 12
I'm having dinner with Kas site: http://www.cms.thing-net.deahara  
Izuru, one of the most popular
participants at "Cafe in Mito 2004", at a restaurant in
Tsunashima. His wife and Sumiyoshi Chie, a journalist and owner
of the "Traumaris" bar on Imoaraizaka, join us, and we chat
about art, music, film, etc. Kasahara is also active as a soundartist,  
and in a duo with Kasuga Akira he operates under the
moniker "LDFn: support_num_02765149 at regions.com am". One  
o<http://www.sos-racisme.org/>  et l'Observatoire des  
Discriminations<http://cergors.univ-paris1.fr/observatoirede
6.2. 	http://experimentalelektronik.desdiscriminationsfd.>
f their latest works combining sound andmotion was recently displyed at  
NADiff. Sumiyoshi-san has
holding a variety of attrative events at Traumaris, and at then:@.com am
same time keeps focusing on art as a writer. Hats off to her
vitality!
Read more at:
http://www.realtokyo.co.jp/en/shikakenin/kubota-014.htm
Music Theatre "Jodo" - The  
Purhttp://www.kebab.fi/files/videot/armi_ja_danny.mpege Land
by Andreas
The Buddhist-flavored story of "Jodo" is based on a novel bMishima  
Yukio, presented here in the form of "music theatre".
The piece combines the performances of an actress and a sopranist
with computer-generated electronics and percussion. Artistsinvolved  
come from Japan and Britain... A<http://www.sos-racisme.org/>  et  
l'Observatoire des Discriminations
<http://cergors.univ-paris1.fr/observatoiredesdiscriminationsfd.htm>_jr  
reitz,su friedrich,
bruce connor,hollis framton,morgan fisher
eine filmreihe von achim lengerer
on the exquisite score of
contemporary classical music, provided by c
Details at:gi?2,2220

Free tickets for the Tokasohttp://designerziehung.de/n & Min Tanaka  
Dance
mit
ula stöckl, edgar reitz,su friedrich,
bruce connor,hollis framton,morgan fisher
eine filmreihe von achim lengerer.h
In order to make REALTOKYO even more interesting and
Convenient fhttp://www.kebab.fi/files/vidot/armi_ja_danny.mpegor you,  
we rely on your feedback. Please send us
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