(Fwd) [World War 3 Report] Iraq: The Civil Opposition

[Ivo Skoric]

a different view on Iraq
------- Forwarded message follows -------
THE CIVIL OPPOSITION IN IRAQ

An Interview with Khayal Ibrahim of the Organization of Women's
Freedom in Iraq and Samir Noory of the Worker Communist Party of Iraq

by Bill Weinberg


March 8, International Women's Day, saw a courageous street
mobilization by nearly a thousand Baghdad women (and some male
supporters) against a proposed constitutional measure to impose
Islamic Shari'a law in Iraq. The march was called by the Organization
of Women's Freedom in Iraq (OWFI), which warned that the measure 
would
legalize the stoning and beheading of women and eliminate legal 
rights
in marriage, child custody, education and reproductive freedom. 
OWFI's
protests helped pressure Iraq's Governing Council to vote down the
measure--for now. But since the campaign, the organization's leader,
Yanar Mohammed, has been receiving death threats.

On March 3, a group of OWFI supporters held a solidarity vigil with
the Baghdad women at the Federal Building in downtown Manhattan. In
attendance were Khayal Ibrahim of OWFI and Samir Noory of the Worker
Communist Party of Iraq, who came down for the vigil from Toronto,
where they live as exiles. Both are in close contact with the
organizations they represent in Iraq, and serve as their North
American voice. On the night before the Manhattan vigil, Ibrahim and
Noory spoke with WW3 REPORT editor Bill Weinberg on his weekly
midnight talk show, the Moorish Orthodox Radio Crusade, on
listener-supported WBAI, 99.5 FM.


BW: Welcome aboard, Khayal Ibrahim of the Organization of Women's
Freedom in Iraq, OWFI.

KI: Thank you.

BW: And Samir Noory, of the Worker Communist Party of Iraq. Welcome
aboard!

SN: Thank you.

BW: Khayal was just giving me some interesting commentary on the 
music
we played. This is the only music that we have from Iraq, so our
listeners have heard it before. It was Les Maqams de Baghdad, and you
were just telling us about how this older Iraqi music differs from 
the
stuff which is in vogue today.

KI:  Yeah, this was very famous music from more than 30 years ago, 
and
everybody likes it because after that the songs changed to political
things mostly--people would just sing for Saddam, or just sing 
Kurdish
or Turkomani songs. That's why when I heard, I felt like "Oh god, 
that
was a long time ago that I last heard it," and I really liked it.

BW:  So the music today is somewhat polarized along ethnic linesŠ

KI: Yes exactly. At that time, nobody would think "Oh this isn't an
Arabic song, we won't listen to it." If the singer is good, everybody
liked it. Today it is different.

BW:  So that's indicative of the whole cultural climate in Iraq at 
the
moment...

KI:  Yes, exactly.

BW:  And, you're living inŠ

KI:  Right now I live in Toronto, Canada. We came for tomorrow's
demonstration, to support women against Shari'a law, which will bring
suffering for women in Iraq, and Iraqi women have been suffering for
so long. Even the civil law that we used to have was based on 
Shari'a,
but at least it gave some kind of civil rights for women, like the
right to refuse marriage. But with Shari'a law, woman will lose
everything. She will just be like any other object at home. She will
have no right to take care of her children when she gets separated,
she will have no right to separate from her husband, even if she is
stoned by her husband. It would legalize honor killingŠ

BW:  For being unfaithful, that sort of thingŠ

KI:  Exactly, so she can be stoned to death. It will take women back
more than 300 years. It's not fair in this world, in this time, that
women can live like that. We need to live just like women in any 
other
country in the world--like American women, like Canadian women. So we
don't accept that. For the Iraqi people, religion is supposed to be a
personal thing. You can be a religious person, or you can be a 
secular
person.

BW:  Well, this is the way it traditionally was under Saddam, but
there's now signs that this is going to be changing in the post-
Saddam
order.

KI:  Well, even with Saddam, the civil code that was instated in 1958
was based more than fifty percent on Shari'a law, even if it
guaranteed like some kind of rights--a little, we can say.

BW:  This was instated in 1958, after the monarchy was overthrown?

KI:  That's right. But after Saddam came to power, he added Article
111, which was a very big retreat for women. And since that time,
thousands of women have been killed--and nobody even mentions it.
People just think, OK, this is their tradition.  There is no
tradition!  And even if that's a tradition, we have to change thatŠ

BW:  So Saddam actually reformed the law to make it worseŠ

KI:  Yes, because political Islam was becoming stronger, they planted
their nets everywhere. All over.

BW:  This was the '80s?

KI:  Yes, in the '80s. A huge retreat for women in Iraq.

BW:  And just recently, there was a measure which was proposed by the
Governing Council which would have imposed Shari'a law, but was
defeated.

KI:  It was defeated, and that is a really good sign that the Iraqi
people are not accepting Shari'a law. We need to have freedom, we 
need
to be educated, to marry the person we want. We don't want to be
stoned by our husbands. We need full equality between man and woman.
So that is our main goal. We have to get it, and we have to fight for
that. And Iraqi women, they have a long, long history of struggling
against this tradition.

BW:  And OWFI has a strong presence on the ground in Iraq?

KI:  Yes, of course. It was founded more than 12 years ago in
Kurdistan. Today it has members all over Iraq, and committees all 
over
the world. We started in secret, because this was under Saddam's
regime. And we had a very rough time even in Kurdistan. When the two
ruling Kurdish nationalist parties, the KDP and PUK, first came to
power they killed thousands of women. We have documented all these
so-called honor killings. So while we finally had shelter from Saddam
there, we had a hard time at first. We had our newsletter, al-
Mosawat,
which means Equality, and they closed it down; we had our office
closed many times...

BW:  The office was where? What city?

KI:  It was in Suliymaniah, and we also had an office in Erbil. They
closed both of them, and they threatened all the women there, they
threatened them with honor killings, and we had to fight against 
that.

BW:  And OWFI has recently led some public protests in Baghdad.

KI:  Of course, OWFI led the demonstration against Shari'a when they
tried to impose it, and we had many public speeches. Yanar Mohammed 
is
the head of OWFI and she has been threatened two times now by the
political Islamic forces, and they taunted her the second time that 
if
she doesn't stop her activities she will be killed in a few days. So
here we need support from all the activists, all the freedom lovers Š

BW:  She is in Baghdad?

KI:  She is in Baghdad, and she gave us a call a few days ago. She
said she has to be more careful, but our struggle continues, we'll
keep fighting Š We have no choice, but to struggle and fight for our
rights until the end.

BW:  During the Saddam era, was she in Iraq? Or she was in exile?

KI: She was with us as an immigrant in Canada since about eight years
ago. But after Saddam's regime was gone she went back for political
activities, to start our Baghdad office, and publish our newspaper,
Equality...

BW:  In Arabic?

KI:  Yes, in Arabic, and we have it in English on the website.

BW:  Samir Noory of the Worker Communist Party of Iraq: could you 
tell
us something about your organization, and how it fared under Saddam,
and how it's been faring in the post-Saddam era?

SN:  Our party was established around 1993 as an underground
organization, and a lot of our members and cadres were arrested by
Saddam. There was no freedom, not any freedom of speech, so there was
no open political activity at that time. But we started our work in
north part of Iraq, in SuliymaniahŠ

BW:  In Kurdistan?

SN:  In Kurdistan, yeah, Suliymaniah and Erbil and Dahuk. And we had
our newspaper, ash-Shuyu'iya-al-Umalliya, and we were involved in a
lot of activity with the workers movement, the council movement, in
1991. I was there, I was one of them Š

BW:  What is the council movement?

SN:  We built a lot of workers' councils in the factories, like the
cigarette factories in Suliymaniah and Erbil. This was a new
independent labor movement in Iraq.

BW:  This emerged after the Kurdish autonomous zone was establishedŠ

SN:  It was in the uprising [against Saddam] in 1991. But this
movement was opposed by the nationalist movements in Kurdistan, the
PUK and PDK, and threatened by them--they sent the militia against
those activities...

BW:  So you were opposed to both the Kurdish parties and the Ba'ath
party...

SN:  Yeah, for sure!  From the beginning until now, we were against
the Ba'ath party because it was against all the political movements,
all the other political parties.  Yeah.

BW: And does the council movement still exist? Today?

SN:  Yes, it is very strong in Baghdad and Kirkuk now, and we still
have a presence in Suliymaniah and also in Erbil.

BW: Linked to your party?

SN:  Yeah, supported by our party. And also in Nasiriya, and I hear
they have started in Basra too.

BW:  And was your party able to have any kind of presence at all in
Saddam-controlled Iraq?

SN:  We protested Saddam's fake elections, and they arrested some our
members in Najaf and Nasiriya. They were in the Abu Ghraib prison
until Saddam was toppled.

BW:  And that was when? When was this fake election?

SN:  In 1995.

BW:  And your people were arrested for what exactly?

SN:  For writing on the walls, using paint against Saddam and against
this fake election. Some of them were sentenced to seven, ten years 
in
prison.

BW:  And have they been able to resume political activities now?

SN:  Well, now they face another problem with political Islam. I 
don't
know if you heard about how the Italian forces were sent to take over
our office in Nasiriya.

BW:  Oh, really?

SN:  Yeah, the troops protect the forces of political Islam there! 
And
now our office in Nasiriya is downŠ

BW: When did this happen?

SN:  This is happened two months after Saddam was toppled.

BW:  The Italian troops shut down your office in NasiriyaŠ

SN:  Yeah! We made a demo in Toronto and we entered the Italian
consulate, and we gave them our letter about that and they said 
"We're
gonna resolve this one," and they didn't! They are really helping
political Islam.

BW:  On what grounds did they close the office? With what
justification?

SN: I think they said, "We don't need any problems here, and you are
communists and the Islamic forces don't like it..." I don't know,
maybe they used this as an excuseŠ

BW:  So has your office reopened? Or it's still closed?

SN:  No, they didn't allow it.

BW:  So have you been able  to resume, for instance, putting out a
publication? Anywhere in Iraq?

SN:  Yeah, right now we have our newspaper ash-Shuyu'iya-al-Umalliya 
Š

BW: Which means what?

SN: It means "Worker Communist" in Arabic. 12,000 distributed each
issue.

BW:  In Baghdad?

SN:  In Baghdad, and in all the cities in Iraq. Mostly in Baghdad
because you know the population of Baghdad is around six million
people.

BW:  And when you call yourselves communists, what are your political
roots, what sort of tendency, ideologyŠ

SN:  You know, communist! It means another society, against the
capitalists, it means equality between the people, economically. 
That's the basis of our movement. And politically, we want socialist
rule, worker rule. That's what we call for.

BW:  Clearly. But certainly throughout the history of the world
communist movement, there's been all sorts of divisions and 
struggles,
so, do you come out on any side in terms of Trostskyism or Maoism..?

SN:  We don't agree with Trotskyists or Maoists, or the old Soviet
modelŠ We believe in Lenin and we don't agree with the Trotskyists.
Our leader in Iraq is Rebwar Ahmed, and we have links with the Worker
Communist Party of Iran, founded by Mansoor Hekmat, who died of 
cancer
two years ago Š

BW: Forgive my ignorance. Is there a relation between the Worker
Communist Party of Iran and the Tudeh, the traditional communist 
party
in Iran?

SN:  No, no, the Worker Communist Party of Iran is a new party, built
after 1991. Before that, there was the Communist Party of Iran,
established in 1980. But Tudeh is the old party that was linked to 
the
Soviet UnionŠ But this party is not, it's different, ideologically 
and
everythingŠ

BW:  Gotcha. Thanks for the correction. So, do you want to say a
little bit about your personal stories?  Where each of you come from,
and how you wound up in Toronto, and what your experiences were along
the way? You were born in Iraq?

SN:  I was born in Iraq, in Kirkuk, the old city.  Yeah.

BW:  And when did you leave? If you don't mind talking about it
publicly...

SN:  I was in Kirkuk most of my youth, I was a medical student, but 
in
1983, I was forced to leave because of my political activity. I was
mostly in Erbil, with a fake identity. I came to Toronto in 1998.

BW:  And Khayal?

KI:  I'm from Kurdistan, from the city of Dahuk.  I left Iraq in 
1995.
 And that was also because of political activities, especially with
women's activism. When I was in university, I found that the whole
society was going backward, and women were losing their freedom, and
we were getting killed, we were getting stoned in honor killings, a
big difference opened between brothers and sisters, a big difference
between men and women, and the whole society was against women.

BW:  What era are you referring to?

KI:  I'm talking about when I was in university, from 1991 to 1993.

BW:  In Kurdistan?

KI:  In Kurdistan in the city of Dahuk. After the first US war in 
Iraq
in 1991, Saddam Hussein lost his authority in Kurdistan, and the two
Kurdish political parties came to power--first they fought each 
other,
and then they started the honor killings. Nobody in Canada can 
believe
it, they say, "OK, where are the rules, where is the government, 
where
is the court?" The whole society was going back.  So we had to fight
that. And our lives were in danger.  A friend of ours was killed, and
then me and my husband received threats, and we had to leave. We 
moved
to Turkey and we applied to the United Nations from there and we
landed as immigrants in Toronto.

BW:  Who was in power in Dahuk at this point? This was one of the
Kurdish parties?

KI:  Yes, the KDP. But both [KDP leader] Masood Bazani and [PKK
leader] Jalal al-Talabani, they only build their own political
movement, they did not pay any attention to poverty, women's issues,
education. I remember when we were children, girls and boys used to 
go
to school just the same, there was no idea of "OK, the girl has to
stay home." But after these two parties came to power, about seventy
percent of the girls stayed out of school, they couldn't continue
their education.

BW:  So things actually got worse after the KDP came to power?

KI:  A lot worse! Girls just five years old, had to be hijab-ed, had
to wear the veil, that was compulsory, she has no right to say noŠ 
She
is stopped from going to school but her brother, it's OK he can go to
school. It was a very big retreat for women.

BW:  OK, but that did begin to turn around in Kurdistan in subsequent
years, right?

KI:  Yes it did. But at first there was not much difference between
Saddam and the Kurdish parties, because the political Islamic
movements had their nets are all over. They would tell the workers,
"Come and take some bread and rice, but you have to bring your young
daughter, and she has to memorize verses from the Koran, and she has
to wear a veil." They started to brainwash, especially the young
teenagers, they try to make them rule at home, "Your mother is not
allowed to do that, your sister is not allowed to do thatŠ"

BW: These groups were able to maintain their activities openly? Both
in Kurdistan and Saddam's Iraq?

KI:  Very openly, yes. Later they were put down by the KDP and PUK.
But the nationalists and Islamists--they have no better future for 
the
Iraqi people.

BW:  But let's say, two years ago, when Saddam was still in
power--things were better for women in the part of Iraq that Saddam
controlled?  Or better in Kurdistan?

KI:  In Kurdistan it was better, because of the movements, especially
the radical movements. The Worker Communist Party was a very big help
for us. And Saddam was not there, so we had more chance to talk
freely, even if the KDP and PUK also killed many of our friends and
closed our offices. But, overall, the Kurdistan radical movements had
more freedom. Saddam's society was completely closed, he was the
dictator, and there was no tolerance under his power. Otherwise, 
their
ideas were the same.

BW:  Arab nationalism versus Kurdish nationalism?

KI:  Yes. When Article 111 was passed, instating Shari'a law, 
hundreds
of women were hanged in southern Iraq--like 200 in about a week.
Mostly they were accused of being prostitutes. I have a friend who 
was
in Baghdad then--she stepped out of her house and she saw her
neighbor's body on one side of the street, and her head on the other
side of the street Š

BW:  And this was done by who? This was carried out byŠ

KI:  By Ba'ath regime.

SN:  Saddam's Fedayeen. He beheaded more than 200 women in Mosul and
Baghdad especially. Sometimes they allowed the brother or father or
husband to kill, the do the honor killing. They could kill any woman
in the family without punishment.

BW:  OK, so the measure which was just now before the Governing
Council would have made things even worse?

KI:  The Governing Council is a lot worse--instead of having one
Saddam Hussein we have about 25 Saddam Husseins with a much more
restrictive Islamic political program. And every day there is a
bombing in Iraq, by some kind of reactionary movement trying to 
impose
the same Islamic ruleŠ

BW:  How would the Governing Council's proposed Article 137 have
differed from 111, the one from the Saddam era? More stringent?

KI:  It is completely different. Under this one, women will have no
right to take their children in separation, no custody rights, and no
right to say who I will marry or to get divorced. Girls just 12 years
old can be married against their will with an older man, with no 
right
to say no--her brother or father can say, "you are going to marry."
She has no right to education, she has to wear the veil, she is not
allowed to leave the country, she has no civil rights, no human
rights. She has none.

BW:  But this was defeated? How was 137 defeated?

KI:  It was defeated by OWFI. That's the main thing--there was a
demonstration, thousands of women in the street.  They could no 
impose
it, we say it's impossible in a  country like Iraq. It is a modern
country, it is not Islamic, it has many religionsŠ And people in Iraq
are educated, we have many professionals. It is impossible to impose 
a
reactionary resolution like 137.

SN:  The first day this resolution came out, there were 85
organizations--not only OWFI but 85 other organizations, women's and
other civil organizations--they all came out and said no to this
resolution. See, the Iraqi people are a secular people, I do not 
agree
with anyone who says the Iraqi people are religious, this is an
Islamic country! I don't agree with that, this country is secular, a
good percent of women go to the university, many of our writers are
women. And now, Resolution 137 would mean stoning, cutting off handsŠ

BW:  But after your protests, the Governing Council voted it down?

SN:  Yeah.  They defeated it, five to fifteen.

KI:  But they defeated it under the pressure of the movements, the
women's movements.

BW:  Are there women in the council now? There are a couple, right?

SN:  I think three, but those women in the council, they wear a veil,
they are not radical Š

KI:  They don't speak for us.

SN:  Really, women's activists are not in the council, they're not
represented there.

BW:  I think the most important question for our listeners is, what 
is
your positive vision of Iraq's future?  Everybody wants the US out,
even George Bush is saying at this point he wants the US out--but 
what
happens after that? You oppose the occupation, but how do we get from
here to there? What are the circumstances under which the US can 
leave
without fundamentalists coming to power, or civil warŠ

SN:  First, before the war started, we said this is the dark 
scenario.
Right now it has become darker. Everyone can see--explosions on the
street, kidnappings, especially of women--gangs take women and kids,
in Baghdad, and sell them in Arabia, in Jordan... All this has never
happened in Iraq.

BW:  Women are being abducted from Iraq and sold in neighboring
countries? As prostitutes? As slaves? As what?

SN:  We don't know have the exact picture, but women can't walk in 
the
street without guards, without a brother or husband. This is the
situation. A very dark situation. This is what happened because of 
the
occupation. This occupation brought all the forces of political Islam
back. They opened the door for all the kinds of political Islam, from
Saudi Arabia, from Pakistan, from Iran--they are sending weapons and
money. If the occupation forces leave, the people of Iraq can decide
what they want to do. But right now they have no choice, the choice 
is
in the US forces' hands, the occupation forces. Really, we want them
to leave, and we know what we have to do. The Iraqi people want a
secular state. We want separation of religion and state.

BW:  I would like to believe that, and you know I have not been in 
you
country, but just looking at the media coverage here, even most of 
the
opposition to the occupation, the big rallies we've seen, have been
organized by Shi'ite groups and Sunni fundamentalistsŠ

SN:  No, no, the Shiites are in with the council, they are with the
occupation forces. Who says they are opposed?

BW: Well, not all of them. There's the Sadr group which is opposed,
right?

SN:  Most of the Shi'ite groups are in the council.

BW:  OK, so how is some kind of democratic secular state going to be
established in Iraq after the US pulls out? How do you envision this
happening?  Who can we concretely loan solidarity to here in New York
City and the US?

SN:  We believe there is a strong movement--the women's movement,
labor movement, the radical leftist and communist movements, the
democratic movements--they can establish a secular country in Iraq. A
lot of people! The majority of people in Iraq, they want a secular
country. They don't want a religious or ethnic state. They do not 
want
that.

BW:  And you feel the US occupation is collaborating with the
fundamentalist elements?

SN: I don't use this word "fundamentalism," I use "political Islam." 
I
don't divide political Islam into good and bad--I think all of them
have the same idea, the same goal. The US doesn't like bin Laden, so
they go with Sistani, they sit down with him and they give him power,
they give his people a council seat and everything, just like the US
supported political Islam in Afghanistan, in Pakistan. They say "this
is fundamentalism," "this is terrorism," this is good, this is bad. I
don't know, there is no good and no bad with political Islam--there 
is
just political Islam, they all want Shari'a, they want  an Islamic
republic like Iran, like Pakistan, like Saudi Arabia. And everyone
knows that means stoning, that means cutting off hands, that means no
freedom of expression, no freedom of speech, no freedom to publish...

BW:  It's also being portrayed that the only resistance to the US
occupation is coming from the al-Qaeda types, or else the Ba'athists.
So where is the resistance that we can actually support?

SN:  I told you! There is a movement with the people's support. You
can support OWFI, you can help see that Yanar Mohammed is not
threatenedŠ Now she is under threat every day. You can support this
movement. You can't change the situation in Iraq in one day or two
days. This is a process. Because the US came and toppled a government
in Iraq, and every militia has become a local power. No one has the
power! This is the dark scenario that US has brought to Iraq. They
brought it by their hands, and they have to leave and the people will
decide what they do. We know what to do! We are Iraqi, we have our
movement, we know how we change the situation to the better.

KI:  To make sure the country survives, the United Nations forces can
stay, just to make places safe until a whole government is elected Š

BW:  They also blew up the United Nations headquarters!

KI: That is right, but that is all because of presence of US. If the
US is out, they may keep bombing--because political Islam make no
distinction between a child or a soldier. They bomb everywhere. 
Didn't
they bomb the Twin Towers? There was no George Bush or government
target there, and they killed all people like me and you sitting in
the office doing their workŠ But if the US leaves, it will be a
struggle between the civil people and political Islam, and they will
lose, I'm sure! They will lose.

BW: Political Islam? Will lose?

KI:  They will lose their power. They can't stay long. The whole 
world
is changing, and they cannot accept it.

BW:  What is the organizational force which is going to effectively
oppose them? You've mentioned your two organizations, but do the
Worker Communist Party of Iraq and OWFI really have the 
organizational
capacity to take on Sistani, and al-Qaeda, and so on?

KI:  Well, we're not saying it's easy. Women in US didn't get their
freedom--and I know it's not over yet--but they didn't get it in just
a matter of days, they struggled years and years and the society
changed, the law became better and better, and that's our goal. It
doesn't matter how long it takes--we have to do our best to become
like the US and all the other countries where women are equal. And
even here, I don't agree that women are completely equal to men...

BW:  Things are going backwards in some respects.

KI:  Exactly. That's why we need to support each otherŠ We believe
women's rights are universal. Like humans rights are supposed to be
universal. And we say we have to support each other to build a better
world. I came to Canada and US because there is some kind of human
rights here. And that is why I go back home to fight for the same,
even if it's not easy.

BW:  How can people get in touch with OWFI? Are you on the web?

KI: Yes, we have a website, and many newsletters in English and
Arabic, and Farsi, also.

BW:  Great.  And the Worker Communist Party, how can people contact
you?

SN:  Also, we have a website.

BW: Great. So everybody, please join us tomorrow at Federal Plaza at
noon. I want to thank you so much for joining us! Khayal Ibrahim of
the Organization of Women's Freedom in Iraq and Samir Nori of Worker
Communist Party of Iraq. So glad you could make it!

KI, SN: Thank you, thank you.

BW: And why don't we go out with some more of Les Makams des
Baghdad...

---------------------

OWFI: www.EqualityinIraq.com

Worker Communist Party of Iraq: http://www.wpiraq.org

Transcription: Sarah Falkner

Special to WORLD WAR 3 REPORT, May 1, 2004
Reprinting permissible with attribution

WW3Report.com








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